In The East Wing

Abdullah Najjar 0:00
All right, so this is the conversation I had with my good friend Holly McKay. Holly is a veteran war journalist who has covered a variety of conflicts abroad, including the rise of ISIS in Syria. Most recently, she came back from a trip that took her to the borders between Chad and Sudan, where she got to experience the life that a lot of the Sudanese people are going through at this stage. In addition to that, she launched two very interesting things recently. One is a novel called the dictator's wife, and the other is a podcast that's called Parent this patches from parenting across cultures. So if you're interested in hearing our conversation, perhaps you'd want to stick around. We delve into a lot of interesting topics, particularly the the the reality of war reporting and what that entails. So without further ado, this is our conversation together. All right, I think we are, we are live. Holly, thank you for joining me in the East Wing. It's, it's honestly a pleasure to have you again with me in this in this virtual studio, and I'm excited for the conversation that we're going to be having. Me too, yeah, so, I mean, a lot has happened recently in the world and in your life, right? I mean your recent trips to, I think, Chad, or even the border with Sudan, right? To highlight the plight of what people in Sudan are going through. And obviously, recently you've, you started a new podcast, and congratulations, that's, that's, that's, that's great. And, I mean, there's a lot happening. And you know, obviously the collapse of the Syrian regime, a country where you've, I'm sure you've had great deal of experience with being, I guess, on the ground, I'm interested to before we even talk about the collapse and this sort of maybe, I guess, a major transition in the Middle East, how about we sort of maybe go back to the time you were there in Syria. I think it was 2015 right?

Hollie Mckay 2:31
I paid a few trips to Syria, sort of, yeah, around that period, I think the last time I was there was 2018

Abdullah Najjar 2:39
oh, wow, yeah. Might have been 2019

Hollie Mckay 2:41
but around then, yeah, but I sort of started going, I think it was around 2013 was my first time there, 2013 so

Abdullah Najjar 2:50
can you maybe just a little bit of context, walk us through a little bit of your time there to first trip. What was that like? I mean, it's been more, I think now more than 10 years since you've first stepped foot in Syria. What was the reality on the ground like during that time?

Hollie Mckay 3:08
I mean, it was a heart I mean, really just a heartbreaking war. I think how quickly everything had escalated from a peaceful protest into just an absolute, brutal crackdown by a dictatorial government, and just the, you know, just the level of fear people had, the enormity of, you know, the bombing campaign, which really increased with with Russia's involvement in 2015 and just the lives that people live in war. And I think that is the universal aspect of war, no matter what sort of country you're in, it's people are living day by day in absolute fear. Every other sort of institution falls away. You know, there's no 911 to call. There's no, you know, hospital to kind of go to if you're sort of sick and not feeling well, because they are already so overwhelmed. And in the case of Syria, really a target for these bombing campaigns. So it's just, you know, an incredibly sad and depressing situation of how lives are completely up ended really in an instant, and that you know you can walk outside your house and not even walk outside your house. You can be asleep in your bed and a bomb will hit, the unpredictability of it. It's exhausting that living in that type of fear is it's so depleting on the body, I can't imagine having to have existed in that 24/7,

Abdullah Najjar 4:46
yeah, and you were there for how long, Holly? Do you remember my trips were

Hollie Mckay 4:52
usually like a few weeks on end, so two, three, up to a month.

Abdullah Najjar 4:58
And. The first time you were there, you recall the cities or the areas where you were that you visited or maybe reported from.

Hollie Mckay 5:13
Yeah, there was sort of this initially, was from the Turkish side. So you're looking at more Idlib, you know, through Aleppo, that area, and then other trips, depending on the focus of what I was working on, I would go through Iraq, the northern part of Iraq, where you get in a little boat, and across the various river to the other side and that Syria. And then from there, I would sort of go all over from Kobani to Manbij, to de Azor to Raqqa, to sort of anything, and sort of a different, I guess, part of Aleppo from that side as well. So you kind of depending on which side you're coming from. So yeah, I did get a visa to go to Damascus, a very rare visa once to go to Damascus that the regime had given me. But unfortunately, it's a long story. We don't have to go into it. But unfortunately, at the time, I was working for a big news organization, and they really didn't give an answer. They just said, Nope, you can't go, which absolutely broke my heart, because I'd worked so hard to get that. And I think when you've been doing this work for a long time, you do develop, like a journalist instinct when you know something is going to happen. And so that period that would have been there would have been the first time that I think Trump kind of issued a retaliation bombing against Bucha. So, yeah, it was, unfortunately, it wasn't there. I was there on another occasion where that did happen. But, yeah, that's the beauty of now being an independent journalist. I get it, I guess, is that I can make those decisions for myself and not rely on someone behind a desk to tell me what is newsworthy and what's not

Abdullah Najjar 7:05
right, right? And that gives you a little bit of freedom to maybe experiment with things or do things that otherwise you wouldn't be able to. Yeah, yeah. I remember last think, last year here at NC State, there was, we had a conversation my my department had a conversation with Ambassador, I think Robo, William Roebuck. I don't know if you if that name is familiar to you, but essentially he was, he mentioned that in 2019 he was one of two, I guess, American diplomats who were in Syria, and they were embedded with, I guess, Special Forces guys, US special forces guys, and I don't really remember, so

Hollie Mckay 7:55
he would have been covering the more ISIS side of the equation. Oh,

Abdullah Najjar 8:01
okay, yeah, because his boss was, I think his name is, his name is James, Jeff Reedy, the former US Special Envoy ISIS, yeah, right. And I mean he was, his experience was just, I guess, kind of crazy. And so I wonder if you ever have to be, especially in Syria, to be, you know, if you have to be embedded with certain military units in order to gain access into particular places, is that something that you have to do? For one

Hollie Mckay 8:32
No, I mean, that's some, you know, some journalists really like doing embeds, and that's something that that, you know, that's their style of reporting. And I think there's certainly a place for that. That's never really been my style of reporting. I've always wanted independence. I think that when you, you know, you do go in embeds, but, and I certainly, you know, went with the SDF and other groups out on things, but I did my best to be a sort of independent of that as possible. I had contacts with us, you know, special forces that were there, and I did go to the base and meet with some different figures there, but they, you know, it was frustrating, honestly, because they wanted everything to be off record. And they kind of wanted to pretend that it wasn't even sort of in the area. And I remember at one point being, I don't remember what city I was in, but my fixer and I was somewhere, and I was, have you know, having lunch with the different sort of they were SDF fighters. And then these two American sort of soldiers kind of came in and and they sort of freaked out and didn't know what to do. So it was, it was very bizarre, because, you know, I think they have to go through so many channels, but I, yeah, it's just, it's never been my, my style of reporting, I've certainly tried to be, I. He's independent from that, you know, as I can but I do recognize that in certain situations, you you know, embeds have value, but I think if you can find access otherwise, that's usually the approach that I try to take. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 10:16
it's really, I remember the story of was his name Bastion or Sebastian younger? I think,

Hollie Mckay 10:26
yeah, filmmaker, yeah, that's right, yeah, he did great pieces embedded with and, I mean, that's, I mean, yeah, he did, that was his style of journalism. He did really a beautiful job with his books and his films, taking that style of journalism and telling the story of the American soldier. I think for me, my interest has always been more with the civilian side. I think that, I don't know people will be upset with me, but I do think that there is a difference between the way that a woman covers a conflict compared to the way a man covers it. And just from a biological point of view, men typically are always more interested in what we call the bang, bang, the military side of it. You know what weapons are being used? You know how the the strategy is, is is coming, which side is doing what? Whereas, at least in my experience, in many of my women colleagues tend to be a little bit more interested in the humanitarian side of it, the hospitals, the funeral homes, the houses to go and drink tea and get information that way and until things from maybe a different perspective, and both types of stories are extremely valuable in different ways. But I think for me, I've always had much more of an affinity with that human side of it, maybe more than the military side of it. Oh,

Abdullah Najjar 11:54
that's really interesting that you touched on that Holly. Because I think even in certain cultures where you had to cover a few stories. Maybe the women over there might be reluctant to talk to a guy and might feel a little bit more comfortable talking to a female. So I think I mean in that particular situation, it really you offer an outlet for some of the for a particular demographic, particularly women, to actually talk about certain things that they otherwise wouldn't, right?

Hollie Mckay 12:21
Yeah, absolutely, that's Yeah. I think that we have access to 100% of the population, in many cases, which our male colleagues just don't. And so that that's a real asset. Yeah.

Abdullah Najjar 12:34
And what do you remember from I guess some of the stories are one or two things you remember from your trips to Syria. I mean, I'm sure, I mean, you've written a book about, I mean, you've written about, you know, ISIS stories about ISIS and but I mean one thing that maybe you think you'll never, I guess, forget. I

Hollie Mckay 12:56
think it's just the the frustration that people felt in that the whole world knew what was happening in Syria, and the fact that, you know, we got to this point of almost 14 years into a war, yeah, you know, and it seemed for a long time that Bashar was just going to stay in power, and the fact that somebody can kill that many people and commit such war crimes against his own people, that was extremely frustrating for the Syrians, but I think that in general, they're Very warm people. They're very generous people, very hospitable people. And Syrians are not extreme people. They're there's many different sects, many different minorities, and they've, for a long time, you know, coexisted. And I think that, you know, when the war happened, it was very difficult for the US and the West to I think initially they supported the opposition, but initially a bit after a period of time, it became too hard to support the opposition anymore, because it had been co opted by these extreme elements. So you were in a very frustrating situation of not supporting a dictatorship, but also not supporting an opposition, which at that point was just it was extremely fractured, and it had a lot of good guys, but also a lot of bad and so I think, you know, for Syrians themselves, they were very conflicted in how to turn to but general consensus that I've received then that have never changed. That continued when I spoke to a lot of my Syrian friends this past weekend, is really that, you know, HDS, or any of these groups, they might not be good, but anything is better than the Assad regime.

Abdullah Najjar 14:53
No, and I think that's similar rhetoric that we I guess even in Libya, I remember at the time. Is a similar rhetoric that was advanced by many, I guess, many different parts of Libya, whether it be, you know, Benghazi or Tripoli, there was just, you know, the sentiment where you know, anything is better than the dictatorship, or anything is better than Gaddafi.

Hollie Mckay 15:21
And I think that it's something that in the West, you probably hear it too. I hear it a lot. It's like, well, people can say from the comfort of their nice homes, and you know, having never gone to these places or really have any stake in the game, or how the Middle East, you know, requires a dictatorship, that it has to be ruled with an iron fist otherwise, you know, and that really upsets me. I think it's a very bigoted and it comes from this place of naive privilege to say that, you know, it's okay for other people to live their lives under these regimes where, you know, basically the walls have ears and anybody can be disappeared at any point and tortured with no due process, and that there is a very small group of people who are unable to succeed and get jobs and Get placements in university, just because they're within that inner circle, and everybody else is kind of left to struggle with the rest of their lives, and they'll never have free or fair elections or really a voice. And so I think that, you know, it's extremely infuriating to me when people kind of come back with that argument about how these sort of better to have a dictatorship than something else. Nobody wants to live with a terrorist regime. Nobody wants to live with, you know, extreme elements or, you know, some crazy group running the country. But to kind of say that that's, you know, is better for people than, you know, to live under a dictatorship, I find that to be incredibly frustrating.

Abdullah Najjar 17:00
Yeah, no. And I hear that oftentimes as well. And it really it just speaks to the ignorance of the person that espouses that idea and their inability to view things from a different perspective. It's just this very yeah that hurts, especially when you say to someone that comes from that region, you know, yeah,

Hollie Mckay 17:22
that you're just supposed to live your life and their oppression and, you know, and never be able to choose who you want to lead, and never be able to reach the top echelons in your university class or in your profession because you don't have the Right last name. You know, we have the luxury of not having to experience that in the United States. And so it's just, it's very easy to kind of walk around and claim that,

Abdullah Najjar 17:49
yeah, you know, I've always even, you know, during or under the most brutal systems, or through or even under a lot of or even once when they go through a lot of suffering. I've always, you know, noticed that whether it be, I guess, you know the Syrians, you know, or the Libyans, or, you know, Palestinians, it's when you have conversations with them, you know, a lot of times it feels like, whatever it is that they're going through, sort of become their new normal, and there's oftentimes, I guess, joy and happiness that they find even within all of this sort of suffering that they are, I guess, going through in the like, even recently, during the summer when I was when I was up in in Virginia, I got to meet two people from Sudan that I think you also got, got to have a conversation with through Tom, our good friend, Tom Pritchard, and I do remember talking to one of these people, the woman. I forgot what her name was, but Alaea ala way, yeah, that's her name, yeah. I remember having a conversation with her. And in spite of everything that she went through, she was just genuinely curious in me and just asking all these questions and having a conversation. And I remember, even during the end, when we were about to wrap things up, the way she shook my hand was just so like, it was like this, and then with the other hand on top, and I felt so like I certainly didn't go through the things that she went through. But there's still, I sense the sense of, I guess, joy and happiness in her, that I'm like, this is just very surreal to me, how you can still find happiness and joy, and, you know, yeah, she's beautiful,

Hollie Mckay 19:52
she's wonderful, and it is, and I think it speaks to the resilience of the human spirit. It, I think that it is we are inherently optimistic people, and that hope is really the key ingredient to survival. Is that you have to hope for something better. You have to believe something will change. Something will get better. Because if you don't, how do you wake up every day? How do you get through the day? How do you feed your children? How do you how do you survive? And I think in order to survive these unfathomable things, we have to have hope. We have to have hope and a faith that that there will be a breakthrough, that that it's not going to be like this forever, that somebody will listen, that somebody will care enough to take action.

Abdullah Najjar 20:55
Do you Do you feel like there's a certain sense of, I guess, a belief that some of the people that you've talked to experience after they share with you intimate or personal details about the things that they have to go through, the sense that there may be feeling like some sort of weight has been lifted off of their shoulders, and now you know they at least found someone that can that You know cares, or actually, you know, empathizes with them in a way. Yeah, I think that,

Hollie Mckay 21:25
and that's sort of a key part of the reason that of why I've continued to do this work through the years is that I feel like in telling their story, in being able to write their story, you are giving them some semblance of justice that they are never going to get from the courts or from the international justice system, that their perpetrators will probably never be held to account for the atrocities that they committed, but at least in telling their story, you're reminding people that they have a voice, that people do care, that what they say matters, because for so long, they've been beaten down or made to feel less than and all their dignity has been stripped away, and they're impoverished. They're begging for food and to give them that voice, I think, is just as a reminder that that they matter, and so you're giving them some sense of justice they wouldn't otherwise see. But I think with that, I know for myself as a journalist, I end up walking away with the weight, not obviously nothing compared to what they've gone through. But you you go away with someone telling their story. I think oftentimes it's also an expectation that something might change overnight, that surely when people know about what is happening, when you put that out in the world in some way that okay, well, now somebody's gonna act. Now somebody's gonna change something, and 99.9% of times, nothing's gonna change, at least not overnight. And so that's the hardest bit, is managing those expectations of being able to sort of explain that. You'll tell their story, but you know, I'm not a lawmaker. I I don't have that kind of power, and all I can do is is share. But you know, that's that's going to be limited in and of itself, and then some managing. That always leads me that a big sense of guilt, because it's hard to make change these days. It's hard, I think, and I've observed over my 20 year career in the media, because there is so much noise out there. Because, you know, when I started, there wasn't social media. You had your, you know, traditional news networks, and you had your newspapers and some long form magazines, but I mean, of course, now it's just, there's just so much out there. It's just this cacophony of of whatever you want you can exist in, and that sort of does dilute some of the stronger messages that are out there, and it does make charge change harder to come by, because there are so many different angles. Messages are confused. People don't know what to believe. And just even accessing the information, even getting to be able to read that or see that, that's going to be so much harder because, you know, there's so much other glossy stuff in the way. And so that has been, yeah, that's been, you know, a conversation that I have with myself frequently about the kind of future trajectory of this work,

Abdullah Najjar 24:49
especially your role in it as well with, you know, new responsibilities are, you know, placed on your shoulders, maybe family commitments, maybe other. Affairs to attend to. It just becomes harder and harder to maybe give the same, maybe level of justice to that type of work. Or maybe, I mean, it's harder, but I'm sure it's possible.

Hollie Mckay 25:13
I mean, I think when I take out a project, I'm always going to give it 100% and and do what I can to, to put it out there, but, but it's just the overall I think the the struggle is, is, is very real, yeah, just to, to make people care. I think, I also think, you know, with social media, it's sort of easy to desensitize. I think it used to be that, you know, people were very engaged in what was happening around the world. But I think a lot of the times that that's gone, and I I almost feel like just as a whole, you know, society has lost a lot of that, a lot of a lot of empathy, a lot of, you know, moral graciousness, I feel like, everybody's ability to attack one another, you know, keyboard warrior style, but just but that's very normalized Now, this sort of hate field sentiment, I fear, is it's become very normal in our society. And if we don't have kindness, and if we don't have empathy, why do we care what's happening in Darfur, why do we care what's happening in Berber why? You know, why? Why should we care? What's that got to do with me doesn't affect my life. And so I think when that sort of attitude becomes more mainstream, how do we affect change? Why would anybody care? Why would they want to read an article about Darfur woman? Darfur women who have been horrifically raped and tortured, and if we don't have empathy, then it's very hard to initiate the kind of changes in the kind of support that these people need.

Abdullah Najjar 27:14
There's also the attention span that I think is sort of dwindling as well, where people wouldn't even want to, you know, you know, you find these 15 second videos or 10 second videos, and people are just, just not. People don't, maybe don't even read anymore. They just want something that's quick, informative or not. Obviously, you know, the source plays a role as well. You can't just get anything that's great, quick and informative. But there's also this idea that, you know, people are just not, as you put it, it's just, there's, there's, you know, lack of empathy. And with social media, especially when you're bombarded with misfortunes all the time, it feels like it feels so hard to feel, if that makes sense. And I sense that sometimes with me just having this, this device in front of me, and all of these events unfolding around the world, all the pain and suffering, it feels like, Oh, I think, you know, should take a step back and just to kind of take a little bit of a break. Yeah, but yeah, it's just constant exposure can be quite impactful, especially when you're on the ground and seeing that firsthand,

Hollie Mckay 28:43
yeah, and then you Yeah, you see it first hand, and then it it does. It becomes very frustrating why everyone around you doesn't care as much as you do. And I certainly have to have many moments of checking myself and putting my feet back on the earth and remembering, you know the nuances of the world, but it's hard to see that level of suffering or humans ability to do such horrible things to other humans and not want to do something about it. And you know, that's been the, I think the crossing bed and my life is. I think there's been so many times where I've felt like, you know, I needed to go and, you know, maybe veer off into a different professional path, or, you know, take a position that's going to maybe give me, you know, better, or some sort of steady financial income, especially with a child and all these things. And at the end of the day, I have to come back and it just it kills at me, because I can't know these things and not want to do anything about it. So yeah, with all the challenges that come with that. But at the end of the day, there's something that I want to be able to to sleep at night knowing that I didn't turn away from something and that, you know, my contribution, however small in the world, you know, it can matter in a small way. And so I think that for me, that's the biggest lesson, or biggest hope that I have for my for my daughter, is that she understands the world, she sees the world, and she wants to play whatever part she can to to make it better. Because I think that is the world, what the world needs. The world doesn't need more influences. The world doesn't need, you know, more Gazelle CEOs. The world doesn't need more Hollywood actresses. No offense doing it out there. I'm being very blunt right now, but the world needs people who want to stand out for the right thing and want to stand with people that need them, because there's so many people out there that need our our voice, our support, our care, and we're in a place of privilege. Really, we are we. We can sleep well at night. You know, we for all our problems that we have, and I'm not saying that we don't, but you know, majority of us can go to the grocery store, pick up food, and, you know, live a relatively happy, joy filled life. And for so many people, that's just, I mean, they're living in incredibly in my recent trip with the darfurians, I mean, just really dire conditions. It's just, there's nothing running water. There's no running water. There's no running water, there's no refrigeration, there's very little food. You know, everybody's coming down with malaria multiple times a year because they're just there isn't I mean, something like a mosquito net is a luxury and just such a small impact. I think we don't realize what, how little, how little, goes a long way. And I think it's much easier to sort of turn away and go inward and focus on ourselves. But I just know for me, that's just not the way that my DNA is. I'm I'm not able to do that. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 32:17
with the the trip you went on to to Chad how How long has it been since you've before you went there? How long has it been since you've been to like a conflict horn area or a place,

Hollie Mckay 32:41
um, a conflict on area, I guess it was, I mean, I had Raven in 2023 Yeah. So spring of 2023 Wow. So it was just, just over a year, I guess, a year and a bit, yeah, 18 months. How did that?

Abdullah Najjar 33:08
What was that like to be away for a while and then go back to a place of, I guess, humanitarian crisis. It really feels like

Hollie Mckay 33:17
home to me going to these places. I know that sounds a little crazy because it's not my home, but I think because I've worked in conflict zones for a really long time in many parts of the world, it's a place that I do feel relatively comfortable there, which is why I've continued to do the work. Because I certainly think if you're absolutely riding in discomfort, then it's not the profession for you. But I felt very comfortable there. I I love meeting new people. I love the experiences. I love having my eyes open to different people, different cultures, different languages, all of that. And for me, I guess, and when I'm not there, I'm it really. I miss it. It tears me up. So going back is obviously horrific on one hand, but on the other hand, it feels like where I'm meant to be. And so there's a certain settling of everything else, I think, when I'm in these places and just kind of able to do the work that I feel matters and everything is in its right place. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 34:27
you know, I remember reading a book for one of my classes, an anthropology course on humanitarian aid, wealth and poverty, and we came across a story in a particular Scandinavian country, forgot what that country was, which speaks to my performance in the class. I'm just kidding. I'm sure

Hollie Mckay 34:51
you aced it. I'm sure you were at the top. No,

Abdullah Najjar 34:54
I think, I think I did okay. But and my professor loves my podcast, so. Shout out to Doctor, Doctor Jordan. Anyways, I remember in that in one of the books we read, there was a story about these elderly women who who sew blankets and they spend days and long hours and a great deal of effort to try to sew these blankets and give them away to people who are in need. And they do these things because an anthropologist is studying these women, and anthropologist says that these women do these things because this keeps them alive. You know that this whole, this process, you know, this, this from start to finish, the effort that they put into it, it's just, it's something that keeps them alive, and that's primarily why they do it, you know? And I wonder if that's something that maybe resonates with you in a way, where this this work you do, having to go face first into these areas and talk to these people, is that one of the things that kind of sort of keeps you alive in a way, like it, does

Hollie Mckay 36:21
it, does it does it's absolutely, it's absolutely like, it's just, it's hard to describe. It's something that I do I feel it's, it's part of your life, blood. It's something that is absolutely a part of you, and you know that has also made my trajectory in becoming a mom a little bit challenging, because on one hand, you know my baby girl is everything, but I also don't want to lose that part of myself, but I also have to recognize that I'm in a different stage of life where, you know, I can't compete with the 28 year old war reporters who were childless, who can kind of jump in a plane and go wherever they want, which is something that I used to be able to do. And I really have to check myself and remind myself that I have to sort of forge my own path in all of this, because I I can't be that person anymore. But that doesn't mean that I can't do my part. I just have to find a way to do it differently. So I think when you become a mom, you already go through so many I mean, it's very common to go through sort of these identity crisis, if you will, of not knowing who you are, what you what you can do anymore. And I think in my case, it's very compounded, because my work is overseas, and I can't, you know, just pick up and and take my child with me to a war zone. That's not going to happen. And so it makes it a little bit harder to solve. And so it's a constant work in progress, but it is. It does remind me of how important this work still is to me. And I think before I had Raymond, you know, so many people would say to me, Oh, you're not going to want to go to a war zone when you have a baby, you're going to want to give that up. And that hasn't been my experience. In fact, I've it's been very reinforced to me that that is still so much a part of the example that I want to set for my daughter, that I don't. I want her to see her mother going to do what she can in the world, and I don't. I don't want it to be just a matter of me. You know, one day sitting and telling her about the stories that I used to do, I want it to be something that is an ongoing process that she can, you know, see for her, see for herself in some ways. So that's been a little bit of a struggle. But at the end of the day, it is, it's, the work is still so important to me, because it does feel like it is part of me and part of that life blood. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 39:09
this is becoming a mother. One of the reasons perhaps you wanted to maybe start a podcast to understand more about how you know, how did, how did, you know, what is the best way to raise, I guess, a child. And I know there is no perfect recipe. You just gotta be there, right?

Hollie Mckay 39:27
For me, it's been a bit more of a curiosity in the sense that, you know, being in all these places and then talking to people from different countries, and everybody's got, you know, there's so much nuggets of wisdom in everybody's experience. And I think, you know, we're told to do things one way, and we can't, you know, you can't eat raw fish, you have to do this way. And it's just all these sort of set guidelines that nobody really questions. And that's okay, but I think it's important, and I think it's just interesting to see. How the rest of the world does it, and that, you know, the guidelines that we put on ourselves here don't exist, you know, in other places, or, you know, how other cultures or tribes see raising children very differently to the way that we do. And I think for me, the goal with it wasn't necessarily to impart advice or to change anybody's ways. It was more, I guess, from this anthropology point of view of just of gaining knowledge and intrigue and insight into you know how different it is to raise a child in Vietnam versus raising a child in Sudan versus raising a child in India, because I think there's a lot we can learn. But education wasn't my primary objective. It was more just, yeah, giving an understanding of the way the world works, and sort of in parallel to the work that I do, which is primarily focused on war crimes and civilians. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 41:02
what'd you learn so far from from recording and starting this podcast, I see that you've, I think, published maybe 10 or 11 episodes. It's just quite, quite a tremendous feat.

Hollie Mckay 41:14
Um, I mean, I've enjoyed the experience, uh, of talking to different people, reconnecting with people, and meeting new people, you know, and teaching myself the way it all works again. It's not. It is a lot of work. Certainly it's hard to do on your own. A little bit, I think, is what I found without kind of a team or a bit of a support system. The marketing aspect is difficult, because obviously you want people to listen, but there is so much noise out there that I'm I'm not sure I've figured out how to actually get it to people. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if I'll continue it or not beyond this sort of first season, but I've certainly learned a lot, and I really enjoyed it. I think you have to, you know, again, being an independent journalist, being a mom, think about what, what makes sense with you, the use of your time, because I have a lot less time than I used to, and as much as I love the podcast, I have to look at it and think is this makes sense for me to continue to devote such a chunk of time away from my child for something that I'm not sure I can get to the people. So that's been a little bit of my struggle. Yeah.

Abdullah Najjar 42:34
He also recently published a novel, I think your first novel, right?

Hollie Mckay 42:42
Yeah, the dictator's wife. That was my, yeah, that's my first fiction because everything I've done is non fiction, yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 42:48
what was the turn some light on here? What's that? So I'm just

Hollie Mckay 42:53
turning some light on here. The sun is going down.

Abdullah Najjar 42:57
I have my artificial light here from

Hollie Mckay 43:01
I really enjoyed that process because it was more initially an experiment, like I just wanted to play with different type of writing, use the knowledge I had of the Middle East and dictatorships in the world, but kind of Play with it in a more creative sense. I think at the time that I was writing it, I was really just yearning for a little bit more creativity in my life, and so it was more just something I didn't really think anyone would ever see. I mean, I enjoyed the process, but I found it incredibly difficult. I found it so much harder than doing a non fiction. Because non fiction, you know, the story that told to you, you've got the memories, you've got the photos, you've got the descriptions all kind of in your head that the effort is just getting it into some sort of readable thing. Whereas fiction, yes, you have knowledge experience, but you have to really craft these characters, you know, and they have to be extremely compelling. You've got to make sure all the twists and turns add up, that you give enough hints, but not too much, that the story makes plausible sense, and sometimes you don't always know where you're going with it. But it was hard. I found it to be an incredibly different, difficult experience, but I loved it. But, yeah, my hat's off to fiction writers. It's, it's not just sitting in a whimsical space and, you know, just creating. It's, there's so much more to it than that. And

Abdullah Najjar 44:35
what was your, I guess, the the spot where you or the, I guess, time where you feel like all these these ideas are pouring and you feel like you're in the zone of writing something that is, you know, creative and, you know, fictional. How do you you remember that that process? I mean, was it the same throughout or you have to change things?

Hollie Mckay 45:04
Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, they're going to be some days where the everything flows and the ideas flow, and you're really into it, and you're really in the moment, and you're really enjoying it, and they're just going to be days where it just, it feels like such a chore, and you're like, Oh, I can't, what am I doing? But you have to push through those. Because I think if we're just only going to work when we feel the inspiration to work, we'll just we'll never get the work done. And I think part of being a writer is really pushing through those mental blocks to the other side. And sometimes I think for me, it was more just this mentality of just just get the work on the paper. It doesn't have to be great, doesn't have to be well written. It that that can all be tweaked and edited and you can, you can do all that later, just just get the nuts and bolts of it done. So I think even with the stories I write, that's the approach I take oftentimes, is just just kind of get the skeleton there, and that's the hardest bit, and the rest can come later.

Abdullah Najjar 46:06
Yeah, and now that you know, we we see a collapse of the the Assad regime and a huge transition. Do you think you'd be able to is there a potential plan of traveling and spending maybe a week or two over there just to see how things No, I

Hollie Mckay 46:26
mean, I'd be there right now if I could, but, but, yeah, I have. I'm looking after my daughter at the moment. My own partner is away, and normally when I'm traveling, his mother, who's in upstate New York. She helps us out. She's also away overseas, so right now, it's, it's not, it's not doable, and we are off to Australia next week. But certainly, I think the story is not going away, and it's certainly a big objective in mind to get back there next year and continue to to tell the story. Sometimes I think it's really hard to not be there in the kind of the heat of the moment, and I just have to remember where I'm at in life and and just remember that these stories, they continue to evolve and change and and it's all in good time. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 47:21
I don't think I ever asked you this question, Holly, but what is, what is your way of trying to decompress? Like, is there is this something you can share like, you know, being bombarded with a lot of or maybe willingly, obviously choosing to be, to amplify people's voices and write their stories, and oftentimes they're fraught with so much pain, and it's just tremendous suffering. I mean, how do you what's your way of trying to maybe decompress a little

Hollie Mckay 47:54
bit? I don't know that I have a specific way of that. Obviously, you want to be surrounded by family and preacher comforts and, I mean, I work out a lot running as a big part of my life. So those things are all really important to me, to let off steam. But I think for me, it's just, yeah, it's continuing to get the story out. I think if I was just to stop, that would probably bother me more than trying to figure out ways of decompressing. So I think I don't have a set specific way of it, but I think I feel very clear about why I do the work and why I'm on that particular mission. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 48:41
what would be your advice to Raven if she, at some point, decided to pursue a similar line of work?

Hollie Mckay 48:50
Well, I really don't know where we're going to be in 20 years time, just because with the way that technology is evolving, with AI, with all these things, I It's hard for me to even imagine the world in 20 years, but I certainly, I would certainly, you know, encourage with her, with whatever she wanted to do. I think journalism, you know, in and of itself, can be a little bit tough. And I don't know about the appetite for foreign journalism, but, um, but yeah, anything in the humanitarian space, anything where I feel like you can make the lives of people better. I mean, that's what my hope for her is. I think that's what I strive for. Those values are really important to to me and to our family. And yeah, I think I would just, I'll tell her to follow her heart with a little bit of head.

Abdullah Najjar 49:54
I guess that's one way of wrapping our conversation. Thank you, Holly for this wonderful opportunity. You. I'm glad we got to do this a second time. Yeah, this absolutely

Hollie Mckay 50:03
thank you for your support in my work and your interest and your friendship, and you're doing amazing work, and I'm very honored to be a part of it.

Abdullah Najjar 50:14
Thank you. Pleasure is all mine, Holly. Thank you so much. Thank you. Applause.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai