In The East Wing

Abdullah Najjar 0:00
Alright, so this is my conversation with Patrick Winninger. Patrick was a former case officer with the Central Intelligence Agency. He served from 2005 to 2020 his work involved the recruitment of foreign spies. In addition to that, Patrick was also serving in the US military prior to CIA career. And the best part about this episode is that Patrick is an NC State alum. Patrick, I'm so happy to have you on the show. Thank you for joining me. Yeah. So I wanted to, you know, devote this episode to few things about your your early days in the agency, and some of the things that you might be able to talk about from your from your career, and then perhaps a few things from when you left the agency, and some of the, perhaps the stories that might have been folded post, post your agency years. But first, I did want to say to my audience here that our good friend Patrick is an NC State alum. So this is, this is a very interesting sort of, I guess, episode where we might even explore a few things about your days at NC State, you know, I think that that might be interesting. So, yeah, so, um, Patrick, tell me more about why or how you found yourself getting involved with the CIA. Because I reckon a lot of people, perhaps have been sought after by the agency, and some have applied. But what is, what is your story? How did it start?

Patrick Weninger 1:41
That's great question. No great question. And Bill, and thank you for having me here today. Really an honor to be on your podcast and have a chance to meet with you. And obviously, anything, any connection to NC State I'm a big fan of, and always want to, you know, it's part of my give back, try to help that along. That's a great question. I think, you know, when I early on, when I graduated NC State in 1991 I got commissioned in the Air Force. When I got commissioned, I went to intelligence school, and I was, you know, happy doing that. I was very loyal. I grew up in Fayetteville, North Carolina. My dad was a military officer at Green Beret, so kind of grew up with this sense a service to service before self that was kind of instilled in me at an early age. And I wanted to, you know, give back, if you will, to my country. And, you know, I thought it was strange when I first got up to college, I thought everybody's dad was in the military, but it wasn't that wasn't the case. So I, you know, you quickly find yourself in this group of people, you know, like minded, where paid, you know, they want to have a sense of service. Graduating out of the Political Science program at NC State, I got commissioned in the Air Force as an intelligence officer, and then went and did that for eight years. And, you know, got to travel the world and kind of get exposed to a lot of different things, you know, dealing with classified information, being involved in, you know, the military side of intelligence. If you I was not a collector, I was a, you know, an analyst, and supporting the war fighter, if you will, the pilots and making sure that they were aware of all the different types of threats and how to do counter and how to do counter measures and things like that, making sure they understand the environments they're going into from a geopolitical standpoint. But later in my career in the Air Force, I got into the Special Operations community and the Joint Special Operations community, so I found myself back at Fort Bragg, North Carolina as a young captain serving there, and that exposed me to those you know, the different specialized, special mission units that are within the Joint Special Operations Command that the highest, most Elite Special Operations units from the Army and the Navy. You can figure out who they are, and you're working with them side by side, you know, supporting their mission with intelligence. You kind of get a flavor of you start, you know, there, you start seeing, there's a, there's a connection with the agency there. So that really was what exposed me to the agency. And then, you know, over, you know, basically a one year period, through some opportunity to work with the agency on some projects, an agency, a senior agency officer who ended up, who was, who was a legend, but I didn't realize it at the time, had done some really significant work for the agency, and, interestingly, later worked for me as a contractor. When I was at the agency, looked at me and said, Hey, man, have you ever thought about applying for the agency, and I was like to do what it was like to be a police officer. Like, what do they do means? Like, they're the ones that go out. Recruit people for a living. They work in the Directorate of operations, and they're the ones doing the secrets and doing all the things in the shadows, because you got a you got a good background and a good personality and, you know, some leadership skills, and I think you got what it takes. You should think about applying. Do you have a resume? And I said, No, I don't. I'm in the military. I have a resume. So I quickly put one together and got it to him, and one thing led to another. Was able to get in to the organization Director of Operations, gosh,

Abdullah Najjar 5:33
the during your time when the Joint Special Operations Command, when you encounter the people from the from different Special Operations Unit, did you ever sense that there was like, a sort of sense of humility, or, you know, there's a maybe thing about them that doesn't make them look or feel like they're the in the elite unit of the US military, because I reckon most of the time they're so, you know, they're like, they've got nothing to prove. So their demeanor and their behavior is not telling of the fact that they are actually tier one operators.

Patrick Weninger 6:18
Yeah, I think the answer really good question. It set this balance of you know, he's here with them called the quiet professionals, and they really are the best of the best. And I saw that firsthand when I was at J sec, and I saw it firsthand working with them in the war zones in the Middle East, side by side. There's a reason why these people are elite. There's a reason why they're they go through a very difficult selection process to get to the upper echelons of this, the most elite units. But at the same time, there's a character trait that they want you know, that I think is not just similar from the agency. In addition to being, I say there's no humility, being, you know, smart, willing to operate in the gray, not having all the information, willing to make decisions, having judgment is then you know they're, they're very brave people to you know they like, you know they are definitely putting country before self, country before family. You know that that sense of service before self at another level. So when you see that, and it's, it's that in their DNA is that that alpha, that alpha personality, also mixed in with it. It's a great combination. And it's and it is what differentiates us around the world, in those different places where we, you know, they and us and we jointly, have to do some of the things, you know, some of the more difficult things that you don't hear about. And there is that sense of humility, but there's also that sense of absolute professionalism and pride that you see that is a hallmark in their ranks. Oh

Abdullah Najjar 8:01
yeah. What about Patrick? The traits that they found in you that were, I guess, necessary to be a successful case officer. What did you maybe discover about yourself and what did they discover about you?

Patrick Weninger 8:18
That's a great question. I think, you know, I remember going into the process, and it's a really challenging process to get selected. It's, it is extremely selective. Imagine 1000s and 1000s of people, and they pick, you know, literally picking a handful, maybe a couple dozen, you know, at any certain time to do this job, because it's, you know, you're living a double life. You're living a life undercover. You know, where you're presenting yourself as one thing in the reality. You know you're a do case officer, you know, handling spies, recruiting spies, and doing all these things. So like I mentioned, some of the traits that they were looking for were leadership. So I think the military gave me that gift of leadership as a young officer, where they put me in a position where you have to lead people. And I purposely didn't use the word manage the per the word lead. There's difference. They want people, as I mentioned, with judgment, again, you're not going to have all the information. When you're a case officer, you're working at night. 99% of the time you work by yourself. When you're on the street, it's not like you're part of a team and you're and you have to say, Okay, I have this situation that presented itself. Okay, team that should I do? What do you think? Okay, Susie, tell me what you think. Johnny, tell me what you think. Mike, tell me what you think, and then you kind of make a decision based on the feedback you have. None of that. You can't pick up the phone and call on anybody because you're in the middle of an operational act. You don't want to have a digital signature that could blow your cover or blow your location, whatever you know, things like that. Those are things you have to consider. We call that trade craft. So being able to make a decision when you by yourself late at night, where you don't have all the information, call that judgment. That's super important. I also think you have to have, in addition to leadership and judgment, is you have to be able to learn the trade crap that they're teaching you, this art that we call trade craft, and it has to make sense to you, and you have to know how to use it, depending on, you know, which tool to use in your toolbox, which level of trade craft based on the environment that you're working in. And some environments are more challenging than others. You know, in some environments, you know, in a permissive environment where the local intelligence service isn't cleaning you, for example, and the terrorists aren't hunting you, there's a level of trade craft you could use, and probably works pretty well in a semi permissive environment, you know, where maybe the host nation, you're not as welcome there, because the politics have changed now the host nation is very suspect of Americans. Oh, by the way, there's a terrorist threat there, or there's a foreign intelligence threat. There are people trying to uncover who are the American spies working in the country. Let's uncover it. If you're a Russian like, let's uncover who the American spies are in the embassy and tell the host nation so they get them thrown out. Or if you're a terrorist, let's figure out what better if we can kill some CIA guys. What a great story it is for us. What a you know, what a win that is for terrorists, for the terrorist group. So again, being able to use your trade crafting the environment when you're in and understand that from A to Z is super important. And the last thing I'll say that is a trait that people need, in addition to leadership, judgment and trade crack, is really the sense of adventure like this. I tell people, you know, when I speak, you know, you know, I speak to universities, I speak to national security classes. And again, my intent is one of the reasons I want to do this podcast, also is just tell a little bit about my story. And not to say, Oh, look at me, but more to say, Look at me, in a sense that if a guy Fayetteville, North Carolina, was able to do it in NC State, you could do it. But that last piece is you have to have a sense of adventure if you're not prepared to go overseas and work and be separated from your family and you know your friends and and live this, this type of life, which, it's not a career, it's really a livelihood. You know what I mean? Yeah, because you're never really turn it off, no matter where you're at what you're doing is you're undercover, and you're living this, this life. You know, if you're not willing to do that, you want to stay in Washington, DC, or live in, you know, New York City, or live in Kansas City, then this is it for you. And I say, I'll tell people all the time, I was like, it's a great job, but it's not without sacrifice. It's very hard on families, very hard on marriages, but it's a fantastic job. Whereas a young person, you can have tremendous impact in serving your country and protecting your country, but you can't do it sitting in a cubicle in Washington, DC. You got to get out and guess what? Not every job is in London and Paris. Like, there's a lot of jobs in Islamabad, and you know, it used to be Kabul and other places, or, you know, the you pick, you know, in Ghana, in Africa, there's, we have people all over the world. Yes, going to London and Paris and Rome are great. But that's not necessarily where, you know the mission is, right? There's definitely some mission there, but there's mission a lot of other places too. So yeah, those are the four main things I think you would need. And for whatever reason, they saw that in me, and I didn't fully see all of that in me. But then when you you start realizing, like, okay, looking around the room, like, I'm not the dumbest guy in the room. I can compete here, you know, but it's a process. It's definitely a process. Good

Abdullah Najjar 14:04
Lord, how was that? How did it feel to keep that sort of life under wraps, especially if you know, assuming at that time you had maybe loved ones or those that you were very, very close with, but you had to keep things in the shadows, so to speak, like you couldn't really tell these people. Like, how did that? I'm sure that sort of weighed heavily on you.

Patrick Weninger 14:29
I think the you know it's, it's hard, because when you know there are a few family members that are aware, but your closest friends, you know, you know they're not aware. And you know, for me, that was hard. You know, a lot of Chris friends that I had from NC State that are to this day, so my closest friends, suddenly, you're living nine times time zones away in the Middle East. So what? So when you have that, that break in in your in geography. You're not co located with your friends and your family, then you're living this other life, and you don't want to you feel you almost feel guilty lying to people that are close to you. You know, I mean, yes, it's your job to live the cover and and present yourself to something you're not, but to the closest people you live with, at least in my case, yes, they now knew the quote, unquote, I worked for the State Department, but I didn't rub it in their face, because I didn't want to like, look like I was lying to them all the time. So that actually led to me distancing myself from them. So you know, I didn't want to put myself in a position where I was continually lying to my friends, but that caused a separation in my friendships and with family members, so to speak, so you kind of lose some of yourself, if you will, and some of those relationships, and that makes it hard. And I think since I've retired, I've gone out of my way to go back to the people that were truly important to me and friends and family, and try to build that tissue again, that connectivity, but there's no making up for it. It does it. It's hard. It's hard on friends and family and, you know, and it's personally, it's hard on, you know, it's hard on you too, because you're, yes, you have other friends and people that you end up getting to know as part of your your work, and that also work at the agency, but, but those core people that were with you when you were growing up, and your friends and family in college and military, they, you know, they think, they think you're doing one thing and you're doing something else, yeah, but it leads to, again, it's, there's a sacrifice that family and friends, it takes A hit those relationships. Do

Abdullah Najjar 16:40
you know, Patrick, there's a there's a retired officer that I've had on my show that maybe you've crossed paths with before. His His name is Jim Lawler. I don't know if that name rings a bell, but it does, yeah, yeah. He him and I recorded a couple of episodes together, and I think I remember in one of the conversations we had, we were talking about the this, this when, when you're maybe telling your loved ones about what you really do, you sometimes have to feed them information, not all, but gradually, like a bit by bit, until, you know, sort of the truth is revealed, so to speak. But it's never, it's never, sort of revealing it all in one go, at least the stuff, yeah, at least the stuff that can be revealed. And I think that might also apply to the concept of recruiting a foreign spy. You want to build that relationship first, and you want to ensure that they're comfortable with you, around you, and you know, even when you break cover, they you wouldn't like, maybe scare them away.

Patrick Weninger 17:58
Yeah, I think that, you know that's, I get the analogy you're making the but the you know, the the relationship that you have with somebody that you, you know, Spot assess, develop and eventually recruit and handle, and then turn over to somebody else to handle, is an extremely personal and intimate relationship in most cases, not in all cases, but in most cases, in any you know, most case officers will say a version of this, at least, in my view, you are building trust with this person, because if you think about it, somebody that is willing to take the risks that we're asking them to take, to steal secrets, whether it be from their government or, you know, from their terrorist network, or you Name it, those risks usually if found, if found out, result in death, right for them, potentially their family. So when they are doing this to protect the United States government in our country, they're doing it knowing they could die. So if you're handling that person, think about the trust and the faith you want that agent to have in you as a case officer, so that they will do the things that they said they would do. It. It's, you know, there's a long process there. Human takes time, human intelligence takes time, and that time is to build that relationship, to vet the source is this person who they say they are. Do they have access to the sensitive information they claim they do like? So how we determine that? Now we figure that out? There's a process for that. Are they? Do they have the suitability to be recruited? In other words, is this? Can this person keep a secret? Can this person live a normal life knowing that they're betraying their government and risking their lives and the livelihood of their family to make money, or for whatever their ideological cause is. It's not always for money, by the way, that's a misconception. So are they suitable? Do they have the mindset to do this? So think about that. You know, say you have somebody working for you, and you're paying them. They give you a significant piece of information. You pay them a big chunk of money. Do you trust that, hey, on their government salary, are they going to go buy a new Cadillac and a fur coat his wife? What did you just do? You just highlighted yourself? Yeah, you trust that they're not going to do that. So it's a lot of things, but it is an extremely personal and intimate relationship. Yeah, that plays out in many different ways. Gosh, many different

Abdullah Najjar 21:08
is there, is there perhaps a story from from your missions that might apply to someone you've assessed and you've realized that, you know they, of course, you can't obviously reveal the identity or where it happened, but perhaps, maybe we can highlight some of the process that you had to undergo to determine that this person is capable. You know, you're like, Okay, I think

Patrick Weninger 21:42
we're fortunately assessing somebody. They're constantly assessing someone and trying to vet someone. I've been in places, on one extreme, where it was really difficult to do that, where there was a friends and family network, where you had one guy on the books. And, you know, any piece of information he couldn't figure out, he would bring in his cousin with the cousin suddenly knew had this information, but you got to pay the cousin too. And then this, you know, it's, you can imagine what the types of places those are, yeah, and it's, and it's more challenging to vet, but you have these friends and family networks that start coming in, and you can see it, you know, it's not rocket surgery. You can kind of see it when it's happening, but other places, as far as you know,

you know, people have different reasons for wanting to do this. Yeah, again, it's not just financial. There's ideological, ideological reasons. You know, there's also provocations, right? You know, the host nation Intelligence Service also is going to run people at you to try to identify who the CI officers are. Hey, you know, there's every embassy has what's called, and this is not a classified A Walk in program run by the security office, where somebody shows up at the embassy, knocks on the door and says, My name is so and so, I want to talk to a security officer, and then they have their identification. You try to vet who the person is, and somebody's going to sit down, somebody from that embassy, not going to say who, which agency, somebody from that agency is, somebody from that embassy is going to sit down and talk to him, say, What do you want to talk about, buddy? They might say, You know what? I work in this office, and I have this great access to the leadership of my country, and here's a document that tells you their plans and intentions, and I want to work for you, and I want $10,000 for this. How do you vet that set a provocation? Because then they just say, I want to meet the CI officer. Yeah, and I can't I gotta go. I can't meet you right now. We need to meet tomorrow. Meet me downtown. Meet me at this location. They want to control the location like there's different things. Think about it. So is that a provocation? How do you vet that? So you have to make again. This is where the ambiguity comes in. You have a lot of ambiguity. You gotta make tough decisions. And you know this is it's not always easy, but you're always assessing and trying to test and vet people again. What I just said a few minutes ago, are they who they say they are? Do they have the access they claim? And what are their motivations and why? Why are they doing this? Why are you coming Why are you talking to me today? What's your story? What do you want to talk Why are you coming to me? UK, I didn't come to you. You came to me. What do you want to talk to me? Why? What's behind this? So, the emotional intelligence, you know, it's another thing when you talk about characteristics we look for in people. To do this job is to have emotion. Intelligence. So are you able to relate to people and understand people and you know? And sometimes that's gut feeling on people you know. Do you believe this person you know? Are you you know, no matter how believable somebody is, they could still be lying. You know. Are you able to suss that out? So it's an interesting you know, it's an interesting job. I'll tell you that in many ways,

Abdullah Najjar 25:28
you know, I remember, remember Jim saying something Jim Lawler about the in one of the recruitments where, you know, you have to, obviously, put the the person that you recruited on a polygraph test, and one of the things the questions that were he shared on the podcast is sort of touches on the latter example you gave about someone walking in, and you're trying to assess if they were pushed by someone to do this. And the question that is being asked is, did somebody ask you to come to us something to that effect, right? Did somebody? And the answer has to be obviously a yes or no. It shouldn't be in between. So did somebody direct you at us? Right, right? So I think, I think in a lot of cases, you know, people want to figure out who the officer is, who the CIA officer is. So they're directed to, you know, by someone else. They're being handled by someone else,

Patrick Weninger 26:44
yeah, who's going to come out and meet me like, you know, give me, give me your best sensitive location to do a sensitive meeting, and they can set up on it. You know what? I mean? Like, there's different things that services do. So it's, you know, they call it the great game for a reason, yeah, but it's a challenge, you know? And you're again, you're constantly assessing the people that are sitting in front of you, even if they've been recruited, you're still assessing, what if their access changes? What if? What if you recruit somebody and they've been on your books for five years, and the best asset, the best agent, they're giving you the greatest information. And one day they come in and they're like, and their information seems off, and you're like, Hey, what's going on? The personality seems off. Oh, everything's fine. Just having some problems at home with the wife, really is that all that's going on? Turns out they got discovered, and the service went to him, said, Either we're going to kill you unless you tell us what's going on we want, we're going to push you back in tell us everything about the CIA officer. What's their trade craft? What's their meeting sites, all this stuff. So so that's the other thing. What if, sometimes people lose access, but they still try to present they have access? How do you how do you figure that out to make sure? How do you know they weren't compromised, right? How you know they just didn't lose their job? They're sticking around to get that paycheck from you. It's, it's not just at the recruitment or at the upfront. When you're first assessing, you're continually assessing and evaluating the person sitting in front of you.

Abdullah Najjar 28:07
Does that, Patrick automatically gets shut down when you're not on a mission, like when in your in your personal relationships, like, Do you how? How does that work? Essentially, like, do you have to shut that down when you're talking to people that you're not essentially trying to recruit, but you know, you're maybe trying to build a relationship with, you know, for the purpose of a friendship or companionship? Like, is that? Yeah,

Patrick Weninger 28:39
it's great question. So like, we, we have the saying in the building, you know, don't Case Officer or case officer, right? So don't, don't use it like, don't, don't do it to each other, you know. I mean, yeah, and people you know tend to stick by that, you know, in your personal life, like, again, it's, it's a livelihood that's part of your DNA. And it's like, there's some hearts, you know, some, I say, hard skills, or soft skills that you're taught that are, that are really good, that, you know, they can also help you in certain situations. But yeah, in your personal relationship, you try not to use it. You try not to, you know, identify people's motivations and vulnerabilities so that you can exploit it. Yeah, you try not to do that in your personal life. You know, everybody's different, you know, I don't, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a valuable set of tools that, that, that, you know, if you do for 21 years like I did. It's just part of your life, right? Yeah, but yeah, there is some, you know, you don't Case Officer, your case officer friends, you know what I mean, like, but it's a great question. I don't think anybody's asked me that before. That's a great

Abdullah Najjar 29:54
question, yeah, because I reckon it's hard when you're when you're. Always on, like when your senses are always dialed in, and you you know you're leading this life, and you're trying so hard, perhaps, to let it not dominate or infiltrate, like you compartmentalize. And this is something that I think a lot of my guests have talked about, like you have to be able to compartmentalize, and that, I think, is not necessarily a trait that can be found in all human beings, right?

Patrick Weninger 30:29
So that, yeah, I mean, it's, there's a that is, that is, you know, you become a master of compartmentalization and kind of a master of risk management in the moment, you know, and, and you're always assessing like you work, you're working in a country under cover, right, far away, country Abdullah. You're working there. And, you know, it's been a long year, you're finally getting your first break, your first week vacation, the station chief says, Abdullah, we're gonna let you go home. You're like, you know, I'm not gonna go home and then go to Ibiza. I'm gonna go have a good time. And you get on that plane leaving whatever far away nation you're in, say, it's in a third world, dicey country. There's a big CI threat from the Foreign Intelligence Service, maybe CT threat, suddenly there's on the plane seat next to you. There's a guy sitting next to you. Something's really chatty, chatting you up. Hey, what's going on? You speak the language. Really good for an American. Me do here? Talking you up. Hey, let's stay connected. When you get back, let's, let's get a coffee when you get back. You know this is a provocation. I don't know, yeah, but, but maybe it's just a friendly guy sitting next to you. But my point is, your your senses are always up because of the nature of your work. Could just be a friendly guy sitting next to you. Conversely, your senses are always up because of your job. So you're like, hey, where do you work? Oh, you're the you're the chief of staff to the Prime Minister. Yeah, let's definitely get a cup of

Speaker 2 32:14
coffee. See what I'm saying. That's your golden ticket. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, I'm saying so

Patrick Weninger 32:20
your senses are always up from a defensive standpoint, but your senses are always up from like, you're a meat eater, like, who is sitting next to me? Let me find out what? Let me, let me flip it on that, right? What do you do? So it's an interesting world. Man, that was a good example.

Abdullah Najjar 32:38
That was a great example, no, because he never, because you never know, right? Like, who is this person that's sitting next to me? Or who's this person? Yeah,

Patrick Weninger 32:47
maybe, like, Hey, I just connected with this guy, and he has access to secrets and classified information that is of interest to me in my government, right? Yeah, damn right. I'm gonna give you a coffee when we get back,

Abdullah Najjar 32:57
more than just the coffee sometimes, yeah? But it's interesting that this is, I think I asked that question to someone else I had on the show, where whether or not, at some point you are so focused on this target, and then you realize that the one that you're overlooking is the one that has the access that you desire. And sometimes it's like, Man, I wish I sort of put my money on that guy, you know. And that sometimes I think just, you never know, you know.

Patrick Weninger 33:31
Well, I think, you know, these things have a way of, kind of working themselves out, and maybe you don't have a connection with everybody. Like, here's the other thing I think, to be a good case officer. Yeah, you got to be likable, that you can't be an asshole. So, right? Yeah, no, you have to consider the podcast.

Abdullah Najjar 33:49
This is a very unfiltered

Patrick Weninger 33:51
Why would? Why would? If you're going to, if you're going to, if you're going to be the agent, and you're going to, you're ready to commit treason and risk your life, right in the livelihood of your family, like we were talking about earlier. Are you going to trust a person who's an arrogant asshole and a prick? Are you going to are going to put your life into that, that person's hands that's arrogant and obnoxious and mean and talks down to you that's very hard? Yeah, you probably wouldn't. Yeah, you're not. Yeah, you're not, believe me, you're not. So you got so whether it's the real you or not, at least in the moment, with the people you're talking to, you have to have a personality. You have to be likable to relate to people if you're not, and that's where that what I was talking about, your EQ, your emotional intelligence has to be high so you can, you can figure out how to relate to people in the moment.

Abdullah Najjar 34:45
Empathy with that, capture what you're, uh, part

Patrick Weninger 34:49
of it. I think that's one aspect of it, for sure, empathy. But it's not just empathy. There's other things that you know, like, if I'm going to risk my life, you. Do all that does this is this person, professional. They take it serious. Because, think about it. You know, I have a friend of mine that tells this story, who was also a case officer that he had, he had an agent tell him once, like, Mark, I'm glad you get to go home and sleep well and see your wife and kids. He's like, but you know, when you're sleeping, you better be thinking about me, because I'm risking my life for you. Wow, you know, I mean, like you, like any moment, my life could be up like that, and I'm constantly thinking about that. So I want you to be thinking the same way any and the agent was right, you know, I Yeah. So it's an interesting job, man, where you get to, you get to have this connection with people on a way different level that it just, it's, gosh,

Abdullah Najjar 35:55
yeah. And do you? Do you sort of maybe you get that question a lot, but do you miss being on the inside and the people, people

Patrick Weninger 36:11
you know, like it's a fish bowl, in a sense, both good and bad, like it's a very small group of people that actually do this, and you kind of grow up together. You have great mentors, and you learn the job, and you learn the business of doing it, and you get to serve all over the world, doing crazy stuff, serving your country, protecting your country,

so it becomes a part of you, but at the same time, you can't let it define you, right?

And that's where there are things more important than this, you know, and you and you learn that some you know, at least in my case, you know, you it. You're charging like, you know, post 911 like we Yeah, the mission was the CT. Mission was okay. Pat you in the Middle East, you spend a lot of time there. We gotta get bad guys before they get us. And you know, it becomes this mantra, this mission, and hey, we saw what happened on 911 and that was a massive black eye for the intelligence community, the agency, the bureau, we failed our country. It was this. It changed. It was a watershed moment in our history, and it changed the way that we live. You have to take off your shoes. There was no TSA. You could just walk through an airport, right? You know, there wasn't, no random security check, right? There wasn't random security checks. There wasn't, hey, you're on this list, this do not fly list, because you're a suspect terrorist. Now, you know, was a different time. You know you could walk on a plane with scissors or a knife. Nobody cared. Yeah. And then suddenly, you know, 911 changed everything. And you're kind of thrust into this environment where, hey, you're now on the front lines, charged with this mission of protecting our country. They can't, you can't have another attack on the homeland, right? So, you know, the people took that very seriously. It's something, you know, I'm very proud of the to be a, to have been a part of, you know, I we always say that, you know, there was the the previous generations in the Intelligence Committee had the Cold War, where we had, you know, the war on terror. And, you know, here 20, you know, four years later, you know our country safe, and you know, al Qaeda and a lot of the affiliates around the world have been destroyed, and they don't have the capability. They might have some capability to do some regional stuff, but the capability that they had back then to do over the horizon and sophisticated plans and attack they don't have anymore. Yeah, are there lone wolves and one offs? Yeah, that's hard. You know, if somebody gets radicalized because they're watching TV sitting in their garage, there's nothing you can do about that, but Al Qaeda, and Al Qaeda leadership, as we know it is is done, and that's good thing for this world. I just for United States, but for the world. So, you know, you get this great sense of pride of having been involved in that. And when you're in it, you can't talk about it. So it's this weird, you know, you're living in this weird world where nobody knows about your successes, but everybody knows about your failures, kind of thing. And then you know this what the media is saying about the you can't say anything because you're undercover as a State Department officer, as a, you know, this officer, or military or this or that different you. Right? And you know, there's this more perception in the media that, you know the agency is a rogue organization, or conversely, it's risk averse. And I can tell you, we're neither. It's actually a really good organization, an honorable place to serve with good people, smart people that are making a lot less money than most people in the private sector, but are doing it for, you know, bigger intentions, putting, you know, again, service before self, yeah, and that's not a mental thing,

Abdullah Najjar 40:35
and how, how difficult was, it for you to grapple with the new reality of no longer being able to serve the your country in a similar way you did when you were in the agency?

Patrick Weninger 40:52
Oh, yeah, I'm actually good with it. It's like, you know, because there's other there's going to be a letdown when you leave the organization, like you leave your friends, you know. Suddenly you're, you know, you know about you're on all these cool missions and operations you're involved with, and then one day you're out. So there's going to be a letdown, you know. And hey, I was somebody in that organization, but, but in exchange for that, you get, you know, to be a father, you know, full time, or you get to be present. You're not flying off someplace overseas, and you can't tell everybody where you're going or what you're doing. And you get, you know, you get your time back in your life, and in many cases, you get financial freedom, you know, you get the chance to get out and make more money in the private sector. Perhaps you get freedom of geography. Can live wherever I want to live, you know, and go do whatever you want to do. So there's, you know, I can be, I can be present, you know, for my kids now, or maybe I wasn't before. So there's, there's trade offs. But every you know, it's a personal issue for people, and you know, for me, that trade off I'm good with. I had a good run, don't get me wrong, I had a fantastic run. Feel very proud about it. Had some great opportunity, met a lot of great people, did a lot of great things, but again, not without sacrifice, not without challenges. Felt honored and privileged to be in the organization, but at the same time, I mean, I left on my term, it was time to go and do something else, and other other things in life that I wanted to achieve.

Abdullah Najjar 42:32
Yeah, but you still, you know, even when we communicated with one another, you still indicated you you travel. There's the element of, you know, traveling overseas hasn't been entirely, perhaps, removed from your life, but maybe you have agency over when and where you want to travel. I think the difference here is that you have the choice. Technically speaking, yeah, yeah,

Patrick Weninger 43:01
do. And that's a good thing, you know, and, but again, everybody's different, you know, I have some people that they were in for 35 years and they left, and they regret the day they left, and all they want to do is go back. But, you know, I understand that. I mean that the building, yeah, we call the building the place has a funny place to take, a funny way of tugging on you. I felt that way too for a little bit after I retired. I'm like, Man, did I make the wrong decision, and then a year later, I was like, Man, I want to go back and well, tug is on me, but that's not. Imagine doing something for your, you know, your majority of your adult life, and then one day you're not doing it, and when you're out, you're out. You know what I mean? Like, there's no due to the nature of the work, the security, the sensitivity. You know you're out, you're out. That's the way it should be. You don't even need to know anymore. You're not involved. Yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 43:51
you go out and do something else. That's the way it was, something else that's right.

Patrick Weninger 43:57
Well, more football games this year. You see the pack play. Give more freedom of time,

Abdullah Najjar 44:01
man, yeah, maybe run into each other during one of those games. Yeah, that's right, I was,

Patrick Weninger 44:06
I was here in DC. I was actually go see the, you know, last year when they had the run in the ACC tournament to make the NC double A tournament. I was at three of the five games, and I was there for the championship game. We beat Carolina, gosh, and in here in DC, and it was, like, one of the greatest moments ever. This is, like, it's fantastic, yeah,

Abdullah Najjar 44:25
it's crazy moment.

Patrick Weninger 44:26
When you're serving overseas, abroad, you don't get to do that, right, right? You know? I mean, that's, that's one of the gives and takes I was talking about, like, I haven't gotten to do that. I haven't gone to an ACC tournament since, gosh, I was in college, I think. All right, God, but so, yeah, it took me 30 years, but now I got to go back and finally do it the one year I go back, it's here in my hometown, DC, or, you know, where I'm living now. And then we actually, we ended up winning and having

Abdullah Najjar 44:53
this magical run. It's surreal. That's so surreal. Well, Patrick, thank you for joining me. And for having this conversation with me, I really, yeah, absolutely, I really enjoyed it, like we

Patrick Weninger 45:04
enjoyed the discussion. You had some really good questions, and hopefully anybody watching or listening got something out of it, yeah, zoom, learn something. Yeah. Absolutely,

Abdullah Najjar 45:15
I'm glad we did it. Thank you so much.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai